Turning Techies into Leaders

I recently had the opportunity to speak with Matt Brady from ZUMA on February 29th 2024 and we had a lovely chat!

Our topic? Nurture first, hire second. Turning Techies into Leader, Unleashing the Potential Within: Why Develop Your Team Before You Hire

We dove into:

• Perception: How are data professionals viewed within your organization?

• Development: What are the costs and benefits of leadership training?

• Individual Impact: What does leadership development mean for your team members' careers and well-being?

If anything from our chat resonates with you - contact me and let's chat!

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Here's the transcript from our conversation:

Matt: [00:00:00] Okay. Welcome. So today, nurture first, hire second, turning techies into leader. Leaders. We're joined by Pierre Martin. Pierre, why is this important now? Why are we talking about this? 

Pier: I think we're going to pick two sides of the argument here. I think you're on the hiring side and I particularly be on the nurture side.

But today I think more important than ever, especially in the data side is that we're seeing more and more. Data people who grew up as data from the start becoming managers and leaders and over the last, over that period of time as they develop into leaders we're identifying weaknesses that they have, and we have to find a way of training them to adapt to that.

Historically, tech people have been more analytical. They've been very much ones and zeros all the way through their career, and now we're asking them to lead teams to think strategically. We. And we have to invest in them in order to get that that, [00:01:00] that skill set up and running. 

Matt: So why not bring in pre made managers from other areas or hire managers?

Why can't we just do that first? I 

Pier: mean, you could, but either way you're going to have a gap somewhere along the way. When you hire someone who is a leader first in a tech and a data and analytics kind of role. You're going to have that weakness on the technical side. So then you're going to go and cover that weakness by hiring a strong technical leader.

And you're going to have two leaders who aren't able to speak to each other or able to relate with each other because you've got one who is more on the soft skills and you've got one who's more on the technical skills. And so you're always going to face that challenge. I think in organizations in the past, we're looking for that magical unicorn, the person who can do everything from start to end and.

As we've now developed, like I said, like earlier on, more people are coming from STEM backgrounds, they don't have that soft skill yet. And I think that's the part that companies need to start to invest in [00:02:00] that and grow those people because they're going to be able to lead that business, the tech side of the business in a much stronger fashion when we invest on those soft skills, instead of having somebody else do that for them.

Matt: it. You've had your STEM background, you've come into data analytics, you've been in IC, you've got yourself to a senior position, maybe even a lead position your manager leaves the company, for example, and everyone turns to you. It's not always by design. How are we helping people out?

What's a typical journey? 

Pier: I don't think there has been one. And historically it's, Hey, the company has LinkedIn learning, go take a couple of courses or, Hey, have you read this book? It really worked for me. And I think I'm at the end of that generation. I don't have a tech background growing up.

I everybody else in this kind of space fell into data 15, 20 years ago. and have evolved with it. So we often come from backgrounds that are a little bit more on the finance side or the business side or economics. [00:03:00] And now we're seeing people, like I said earlier, graduate with data science degrees or advanced mathematicals or computer science degrees, and a lot of the stuff that's been created in the past works for marketing works for sales works, but there hasn't been anything yet that's been created that truly relates to the way that data analytic people stem background people think about.

Or even manage their teams. We are also in this space dealing with people that are like us analytical very much into the, the details of a project. And so I think companies have been using these generic resources to help guide that individual. But now I think when you think about how do we actually tailor that messaging to suit the challenges they have, because not only.

Do they have to develop people that are more analytical, that are quite driven, that are used to being black and white in the way that they think? We're also asking them to juggle quick short term [00:04:00] priorities as a service team, because most data teams are often service to a product, service to the business.

And finally, we're also saying, Hey, while you're at it, stay on top of all the latest technologies and make sure that your tech debt doesn't grow too much. And so there's a lot of challenges in that space. And most of the management books are the leadership books you see out there today to grow these individuals.

Don't really consider that. It's very much more on here's a framework. Here's a topic. Go learn that way. So I think there's still a lot to be done. I think we haven't yet figured that out yet. 

Matt: Where does the accountability sit? Should it be on the organization or should the individuals be becoming more aware of this situation and start thinking ahead?

Pier: I'd say both. I think we're seeing people nowadays look more and more to development I've had, in my roles when I've been dealing with my employees, many development conversations. It's at the forefront. Now, when you ask people what they care about the most, the number 1 thing they [00:05:00] say is development opportunities.

And so it's on the manager to find those opportunities where possible, but it's very much also on the employee themselves or the person themselves to find something that will relate to them. I think the challenge we've seen for this industry is there's a lot of books about how to be, how to run a sprint, an agile sprint.

There's a lot of books on how to properly build a model or a certain type of analysis. But there isn't really anything about how do I lead my team from an authentic perspective? How do I create a vision that is compelling for my team to follow that factors in that in data analytics, a vision is long term, short term, and there's going to be some pivots in that space.

So overall, I think it's on both sides. But I also don't blame organizations at all there, they have to think about the organization as a whole. And when those things come out, whether, like I said earlier, LinkedIn learning or in data [00:06:00] and science, everyone knows, goes to data camp or things like that.

Those have very specific areas. They just haven't fully blended the soft skills of the data analytics world. 

Matt: Could it be as well that with technical skills, you can practice in a Offline situation, pick it up and then take it to the real world and have proper learning. Is that possible in management in any situation?

Pier: I think if you have a good network, you can, and that's another element too, is a lot of the, if you think about unless you've actively gone out and built your network in this space oftentimes you're the only. Data analytics leader within the organization. In very large organizations.

Yeah, there are many different pockets that have analytics teams. But if you're thinking about a company that has, say, less than 300 people, it's often that you're in a 10 to 12 person team. You're the data analytics person. You might have it. A director or a chief data officer if you're in a progressive organization, but most [00:07:00] of the time those teams report into a product manager or product owner, or they reported to a CFO.

And those individuals have absolutely no background in this space, so it becomes hard to have those conversations with them. So to answer 1 of the things that. Would be really helpful is to have a network of people that you can bounce these ideas off of. And just saying you can easily go and do a course on data camp that teaches you how to code something in SQL, and then you can go and apply that to a real world scenario and test it out and see how with a management conversation,

I can practice my difficult conversation in the mirror or with a friend.

But the reaction you're going to get in real life needs to be something that you're going to learn through practice. And also just making sure that you're able to handle wherever weight goes. And I think that is something that we say, Hey, yeah, here's how you run a performance review and go do it.

But when the employee responds back with, I disagree with your [00:08:00] performance of me, and then it's oh, okay, I don't know what to do anymore. And at that point in time. We've seen studies that have showed, what, 57 percent of people have left their job because of their manager. 82 percent have thought about leaving because of their manager.

And a lot of the times it's because performance, feedback, those day to day interactions that you can't train for. You can only build a foundation and a framework and over time get experience by learning how it works and fails and thinking about it. And potentially even talking to somebody about what their experiences are.

So I think that's part of me to think of them. 

Matt: Everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face. I think what comes to mind. It takes you back, doesn't it? And you feel a bit helpless and the weak point between an employee and the company is often the manager is the focus point.

It's cushion, the filter, all these points. So if we. Go a bit more specific and try and give some takeaways. But for people that are listening, [00:09:00] let's start on the business side. We've got this new manager. They are, they've been a super strong IC two, two to four years. They know the business.

How are we supporting them from a business side? And then we'll flip on the other side. After that. 

Pier: So the biggest thing is when we promote an IC, a really strong IC into a management role, there has to be the expectation that things aren't going to be as good as they were when they were an IC. What I mean by that they understand there's a reason they were promoted into that space.

They were seen as a very strong individual contributor. So as a manager. What I would recommend we do is provide them with as much context as possible. Now they're changing. So in an IC role, oftentimes you're project based. Now you're managing probably multiple projects, multiple personalities or multiple stakeholders.

So the best thing you can do there as a leader, what I try to do with my managers is I try to give them as much context as [00:10:00] possible. Why are we? Taking this on. What is the decision behind it? Is the company wants to expand in six months.

And this is why we're diving into this project.

And it helps them understand because ultimately, the more context that they have, the better that they can inform their teams about the reasons we're doing things. And a lot of time, that's what gets missed. So in the first month of having an IC become manager, I believe that we should be making sure that we shadow them.

Go and it's not a, it's not a lack of trust. It's a, let's make sure that you have the best start possible. We shadow meetings and provide feedback immediately. We go into one on one conversations and give them tips on how to navigate these development conversations, feedback. And I think that's the part of what we've done in the past is say, congratulations, you're a manager.

And there are three things that happen. I think you're going to succeed and crush it. And that was the people that make it up the ladder and they've had success. You're going to fail and all of a [00:11:00] sudden you're going to be seen to be a really bad manager. And six months to 12 months later, you're going to leave the organization because I was not supported.

They didn't believe in me. They set me up to fail. Or you're going to be in this middle ground of, you're doing okay. You're navigating fine. And then about two years from now, you get frustrated or stuck. And you've been identified as someone who doesn't communicate well enough, but he's doing a good job, he or she's doing a good job, but you're, not ready for the next level.

And there's never been a thought to say, Hey, I've put this IC into a business role. I should help them understand context. I should help them build executive presence. I should help them communicate because not only now you're communicating to people like you as an analyst, but you're also communicating to your manager who is may have not been an analyst.

Also, maybe to peers or stakeholders in the business who have no idea about data and so how do you communicate with them effectively? So that's what I would look at in that first month is how do you. Set up a framework and [00:12:00] then over time identify those areas to keep focusing on.

Matt: I'd love to dig into that.

If it goes well, that's fantastic. You can be, it is maybe luck, maybe situational. If it goes well, fantastic. You keep the frameworks and it's everyone's having a great time. But I think what people want to learn from is when it goes wrong or when people are doing okay. So how do we improve the situation?

Do we accept failure? What's the thought process?

Pier: I think there's accepting failure within a certain amount. I think a lot of times the individual needs to struggle to be able to see that, hey, I can do better, but there's letting it go to the point where. The employee who is being managed by this person is also suffering overwhelm burnout, like I'll use an example.

You have a manager who micro manages because he's afraid he or she is afraid [00:13:00] that if they take their hands off the project that it won't be done the way that they want to. And so you can let that go for a few days to see if they're going to let you know, take their hand off by themselves. Because ultimately, if you go in there and say, don't micromanage, Yeah, they might do it, but it doesn't become a skill that they remember for the future.

They'll just do it in that moment because I told him not to. That's not a setting a good foundation for the future. So I think there you have to let them struggle a little bit and say, hey, what didn't work again? It relies on having a good. Leader to help them as well to do that or having someone external to help in that space.

If you as a leader can't provide that sort of guidance is help them find someone who can, but it's to say, okay, what didn't go so well in that moment? My employee told me that, they're failing. They're not doing as fast as I can. I'm like what sort of objectives have you given them? How have you set up timelines with them?

How have you decided what good looks like? Have you had any of those conversations? No. I just, yeah. I just [00:14:00] keep telling them what I want them to do. Again. So I think in there, there's some cases where you want them to feel pain because pain leads to change, but you don't want to let that pain go so long where they become afraid, jaded, or just like this place isn't for me anymore.

And I'm going to go leave because that's not what the objective that you want to have.  

Matt: Can we all swallow our pride and. Go backwards. So if someone goes into management, does it, and they go this isn't for you, go back to an IC. How's that dynamic? Does it work? 

Pier: Not easy because you have to, in front of all your peers, Not admit that it hasn't worked out, but in a way, that's the perception.

And we're still not mature enough in this space to say outside of the Googles, the Facebooks, the apples who have very high ranking individual contributors, most organizations. It's your good. I see you get to a point where it's you've got to start [00:15:00] managing people. Otherwise you're stuck here and they go, okay my only path is I need to start managing a team.

And that's what it used to be 30 years ago. And that's the way it's always been. Like, that's how my parents grew up is you go and you manage people and you manage more people. And eventually you manage the company and congratulations. Good luck. So I think it takes a really strong personality to be able to say, this isn't for me, I'd like to go back.

And it's also from an organization not to see that as that person has failed.

Therefore, we're never going to promote them again, or we should no longer invest in them, because management's not for everybody. And realistically, a strong IC is incredibly valuable to our organization as well. I've seen it, though, I've had one in my time, where they came to me and said, this isn't for me, I'd like to go back.

And we made that happen. And then, they thrived after that, but at the same time, it's not an easy conversation to have to say, I'm not. 

Matt: I'm going to assume there's a few people asking, what was that conversation like? What did you learn? What would you have done differently?

Pier: [00:16:00] So actually, believe it or not, it was, they initiated it with me. So I think that was one of the things where, I would have kept on working with them in that space to see that, there are obviously gaps that pop up in terms of, but you could see from, Just their interest level. It wasn't their heart wasn't in it.

And so they were the ones that recognized it, which I think is a much easier conversation, to be honest for me to have. But it also means that they I put a lot of thought in it. What I was actually really proud of and impressed with is that they wanted to stay within the organization.

Many people in that instance will choose to go and do an individual contributor role at a different organization. But in this case, they wanted to stay. So it takes great maturity to definitely do that. 

Matt: Kudos to that, for sure, because I think more people are worried about that conversation and would quit before they have to face that conversation.

Absolutely. And they'd be open in an interview about it. Why are you leaving?

Because I want to go back to an IC, because management's not for [00:17:00] me. How can we, if we're a data leader? And we've got a feeling that this might be the case. How do we facilitate that initial conversation that you're not a failure?

Pier: 

Yeah, I think it's, I think it's questions, so there's a couple of things we can do. Obviously, I think one, one of the things that we can do before we to give everyone a taste of management or leadership is to make them not informal, but in charge of a project with a resource in charge of a program for a period of time or even depending on how you structure your organization, maybe a tribe, you can be in charge of this tribe or, however you want to name it for a period of time and see how you like managing other people or situations. And if they do enjoy it then consider a longer term move into that path.

If you do promote someone into a management role and realize that they're not into it, I think a lot of the times. They know I don't use a situation where someone doesn't intrinsically know that something's not for them. Doesn't really [00:18:00] work where you then have to get through is past that first step of making them feel safe, that this isn't a failure, that this isn't something that they did wrong.

I'm a big believer that it's the. It's not the person that's wrong for the job. It's that the job is wrong for the person, right? And so there's a reason they've had success in the past. There's a reason that we wanted to move them into that role or thought about them. And then how do we then ensure that they feel safe both ways?

Matt: So take a bit of accountability as a company, so that we should be knowing about people's softer skills. So that when the time is needed, then we know who we're going to put in that responsibility. Okay. And so flip it the other way. So to take accountability for ourselves and to prepare ourselves for these kind of eventualities, whether we thought about an IC track or a managerial track how are we best setting ourselves up?[00:19:00] 

Pier: So if we're setting everything about setting ourselves up in that space, to me, it's. I follow what your passions are. I think there's a lot of don't chase the dollar signs that you might see in the short term. And I think in some cases people will say that I have to go into a management stream as an individual contributor, because that's how I'm going to make more money.

In reality, there's a role out there that's going to pay you or value you to the level that you need to be valued as an IC if that's what you truly want to be. And so I think. That's more, it's hard. I don't have the answer in terms of saying, how do we figure that out? But I do believe that people either like managing other people or they don't.

And don't try to be something that you don't want to be because ultimately it's going to come across in the way that you either lead your people or lead your teams. And it's going to lead to you being relatively unhappy on a day to day basis. State of what your passion is and when you're passionate about it, you're going to have a lot more success.

Matt: What [00:20:00] do you think of the indicators? So I'm sat looking around my team. How would I know that, hey, I'm, I could be a people person. 

Pier: Typically, these are people that will inherently have people that follow them. It's They're the people that gravitate to others.

They're the people that are often asking how others are doing or if they can help in other ways. And that's not exclusive to say that someone isn't going to do that as an individual contributor. But that people that want to become. Managers or leaders are more likely to be given themselves.

Like, how can I help you? Or how can, what are you doing? I'm very interested. They're curious. And that's about the people in the way that they can help them. So typically you'll see that sort of behavior come out. I don't want to stereotype too much. I think there's a lot of different ways that a manager could go and it's not necessarily one way or the other.

I don't think that, Hey, he's a great communicator. He should be a manager or a leader or, Hey, he cares about people. That's the way it should go. I think there.

There's [00:21:00] a lot of that gray area, but typically these air, you'll see them put their hands up for responsibilities or taking on things that involve other people versus individual contributor track might be more likely to put us their hand up for something that's a little bit more specified to a project.

That is, I can lead that I can implement that without the people side of things.

Matt: That's again, my opinion, would you say, even if you don't get those inclinations, you should give it a go. Anyway, if any project you get given small projects, low risk, just go for it.

Pier: You can so what I like to do is I actually like to ask people, when I have those conversations with my individuals, I ask, I said, do you want to be a people leader? Are you looking at this path as something that's of interest? If so, what do you like about it? And then you can see that I'm really, you might have an individual say, I'm really interested in managing a team.

[00:22:00] I really liked the element of the dynamics of people and helping them grow. Okay. But I'm really bad at A, B or C, right? And then you can start to have a conversation. It's okay. Before we make this transition over, let's work on those soft skills that are missing or this skill set that could be a blocker.

Again, you're never going to move someone perfect into that role. Like we talked a little bit earlier, you're not going to have that magical unicorn that's perfect at everything. I think it's a matter of trading off between what do you want in that role and what can you train?

And then, as a leader yourself, you also have to be cognizant that maybe you don't have that skill set to train that individual, let's just say that maybe they're they need to work on their, I'm going to make example, empathy something that you find that they are struggling with that.

I'm not an expert in empathy. I cannot probably teach you that skill set. I don't even know how to start in that space as an example. I would look outside, right? Look at other options, whether it's an executive or. Coach or if there's [00:23:00] work that can be done outside of the organization. And to help them grow that skill set.

So oftentimes we try to coach them ourselves, but maybe there's an opportunity to go outside of that. 

Matt: What was your experience when you first became a manager? What would you go back and tell yourself? 

Pier: Oh God. How much more time do we have?

I. I think I'd go back and tell myself that it's going to be a roller coaster. Again, I followed the path. I was an analyst. I worked my way up. I got a team, a small team that started reporting to me. I would get frustrated when they couldn't do it to the quality that I wanted to and that it wasn't as fast as I could do it.

And I had to, I had a boss who told me that it was my job to train them and develop them. And that kind of snapped into it. And even myself I looked for resources everywhere to help me on the skill set. Couldn't really find anything had to over time. [00:24:00] I got myself a coach as well after a couple of years to help me navigate some of the soft skills, the gaps that I had, because I knew they would be weaknesses in my career if I didn't address them.

Yeah, and just constantly just, if you approach things with a growth mindset and keep looking, you'll find those resources out there to help you. But yeah, there's a lot of things I would do differently. A lot of conversations you go home and you're like, oof. Probably wouldn't have said that or I should have maybe prepared more or maybe, I didn't read the situation.

But I think that's all part of as long as you're able to learn from those and move on.

Matt: I think that's the way for it's going to be. It's gonna be a big question, though. So if there was one post it now to leave on your desk when you first that first day as a manager, what would it say? 

Pier: Ask questions.

Yeah, that's what I would say. I think or seek to understand. I think that's the thing. People have a reason for the reason that they do certain things a certain way, whether that's how they understood it, whether that's how they want it to [00:25:00] be. There's always a reason behind behaviors and by understanding the reason behind it and understanding, then you can work from there.

Because no one comes to the office and says, today, I'm going to do my really bad job. Or today I'm going to upset my manager on purpose. No one does that. Everyone comes with the best of intentions, but we all have good, bad days. We all have home things on our mind. We all have trauma that we grew up with.

We've all got these things that we have to that we bring to ourselves. As a holistic person and so yeah, seek to understand it. That's maybe the message I would look. 

Matt: I like it. I like it. I'm conscious of time. Looking at the comments, a lot of people who have worked with you previously and are singing your praises which is always great to see validate the work you're doing, but what's coming up next?

What's on the radar for Pier? 

Pier: You can see I'm passionate about what we talked about for the last 25 minutes. Right now, what I'm doing is I'm kicking off a data leaders foundation. I think a lot of our leaders are lacking [00:26:00] that what I call foundation to become from managers to leaders.

Yeah. Yes, that's what I'm focusing on right now, just to see how that can go.

Matt: Go on, tell us tell us a little more. 

Pier: So things like deep diving into what are your values as a leader? How do you operate on a day to day basis? How do you want to come across? And so with that actually starting to build this out with a few people and if there's anybody that's looking for this journey, obviously feel free to reach out and message me and set up a call and I'm happy to chat more about it.

Matt: Amazing. Exciting. And yeah, wealth of experience that a lot of people will have access to. When's this kicking off? 

Pier: Now. Yeah. Anytime. 

Matt: Best of luck. Best of luck. Yeah. Thank you everyone for tuning in. And Pierre, pleasure as always. We will speak soon. Ciao to everyone else.

Pier: Thanks, Matt.